Behind The Best Podcast

Hosted ByDr. Jay Cavanaugh

The Behind The Best Podcast is a behind-the-scenes look at the people, mindset, and secrets behind the best athletes in the world.

How to Master Your Mental Game With Sports Psychologist Dan Abrahams


Dan, imagine you’re coaching your former younger self in golf because you used to play professional golf with the knowledge you have. Now there’s gotta be some things that you really wish that younger version of yourself knew on embodied. as an athlete, what would be the biggest piece of advice or pieces of advice you would give your younger self specifically when it comes to golf?

Great question, Jay. And a very simple answer that probably has quite a complex underpinning. I would walk onto the first tee and I would strive to be aggressive. dominant woods, aggressive, dominant woods. Um, it’s a technique I call a game face. It’s something I’ve worked on with athletes, uh, competitors for years and something that I could have done with myself.

It’s not surprising the, the stuff that you orient towards as a sports psychologist can tend. to be related to your own experiences of the game. You know, of course that’s going to happen. Um, aggressive, dominant woods, woods is in tiger woods, um, uh, aggressive and dominant, I suppose that sounds quite strange for a sport like golf, but honestly, I would walk onto the first tee and I would have a whole bunch of what I call as a sports psychologist.

Ants being an acronym, A for automatic, N for negative, T for thoughts. The ants would tend to revolve around that player is better than me. Wow. What a great swing he’s got. Oh, he hits it so much further than me. Oh, it’s so windy. I hit the ball high. I’ve got no chance of shooting a good score today. This course is too tough for me.

I’ve been playing. awful recently. My swing feels horrendous. I would have those kind of ant automatic negative thoughts. And the way that I would turn down the volume of ants, squash the ants is I would have a game face, what I call a game face, which is ultimately your ideal competitive persona or your optimal mental state.

And, um, And for me, that would be, it would consist of a couple of action based words, maybe a model player. So for me, it’d be aggressive. I want to walk onto that first tee aggressive. I want to walk into the pool to the ball in an aggressive manner. I want to walk off that first tee in an aggressive manner.

Now, aggressive not being defined as I’m going to go and hit somebody. I’m going to challenge somebody. That’s not part of golf, um, but just holding myself like that, having that kind of persona that and, and a dominant about me, uh, aggressive, dominant woods. And for me, Tiger Woods, holding himself confidently, managing his nervous system as he walked as his round progressive.

So aggressive, dominant woods, that would be my game first. I would strive to be that no matter what, whether I was five under level par five over, no matter the weather, no matter the course, no matter the conditions, no matter the competitors I was playing against, no matter the level of competition, that’s what I would want.

In that way, there’s no guarantees. That means I’m going to shoot a low score, but in that me, in that way, I’m taking charge of myself, I’m taking control of myself, I’m dominating my own mindset, I’m owning my mind, own mindset. I give myself a better chance to get the most from the game I have. on the course, whether that’s my A game or whether that’s my C game.

And ultimately, if I’m on my C game, I want to be able to go under par. That’s a very powerful place to be as a professional golfer, go under par on your C game. I think that’s possible, tough, but possible. And part of that is having a game face. So I, if I was to get in a time machine, go back, If such a thing existed, dominant, uh, aggressive, dominant woods, that would be my persona.

I would be it, do it, act it. I would embody it. I would enact it in order to go as low as I can. But unfortunately, no such thing as a time machine exists. And so I can’t do that. But that is an example of a technique I might work on with a golfer or any sports person to enable them to get. Into the mindset that might be considered their best mindset that would help them manage themselves as the game progresses.

So that’s what I would do, Jay. I love it.

And I think if you’re patient in about three to four years, Elon Musk is going to have the time machine. So let’s keep, keep this in mind. So just be a little patient, just a couple more years. So we’re with Dan Abrams and you know, he’s a former golfer, as we just talked about.

He’s one of the co hosts of the sports psychology podcast, sports psych podcast, also a lead psychologist for England golf, England rugby, rugby. You’ve also helped Olympians, you’ve worked with Formula One teams, um, and now also in eSports. You’re also an author of Soccer Tough. Golf tough. Um, sounds like you’re never bored.

Um, so I would love to kind of go back to, you know, you and I are both very big on trait embodiment. You know, for me, it’s, it’s all about embodying the traits, you know, from your current self to your desired self and embodying those traits, because As much as some of us might identify ourselves as not being an aggressive person, we know what aggressive is.

And we’ve had moments of being aggressive. We’ve all experienced, in my opinion, all the variety of traits, even the ones that we don’t identify with. And so what I wanted to do as a follow up to your first statements is when you do have someone embody a trait, put that game face on, like you’re saying, um, how do you close the gap?

between the current self and the desired self, that transformation that everyone’s looking for. For example, if you do want an athlete who’s not aggressive to become aggressive, we know we can get those micro moments of aggression. If they’re intentional and they’re focused and they get clarity around what aggression even looks like, because it seems like a lot of people say, Oh yeah, I’m going to go out and be aggressive.

Okay, well, what does that even look like? Most people can’t answer that question. Um, how do we close the gap between current self and desired self? When it comes to trades and embodying that, we know that’s a tool, but how do we make it? So it’s internalized and it’s a part of someone’s sense of self.

Yeah, it’s a great question.

And it’s a big question and let’s just go back a step. I mean, you mentioned embodiment there. And as you said, it sounds like we’ve got something in common. If you’re into this as well. I mean, I’m very much into the notion that. There’s a bit of a myth around sports psychology or psychology within sports, and that’s that, you know, it’s invested in the neck upwards.

And actually what we know now is that any kind of psychological tool or mental skill is very much from your head down to your toes or your toes up to your head. That’s not to suggest that there aren’t just cognitive processes going on, but I would always say that any kind of cognitive process or mental process Um, is by not embodied, you know, uh, you act on your world, your world acts on you.

So it’s very important in my opinion to see psychological skills as psycho behavioral skills. I’m going to embody, and I’m going to enact the skills that I’m working on, whatever those skills are from simple attentional cues through to the kind of optimal mental state. I’ve spoken about that idea of a game face through to self talk.

Um, I think the whole range of psychological skills. In many respects, need to needs to be seen as embody and enacted in your specific environment, in your specific performance context. So let’s strip back what you’ve asked here. I mean, I think the first thing is sitting down with somebody and actually helping them define who they need to be, who they want to be, who they need to be.

Garnering evidence from when you’ve been at your best, you know, tapping into memory, I think is important tapping to memories when you’re at your best. What does that look like? What does that feel like? What do others say? As you say, not everybody’s particularly articulate when it comes to this stuff.

Not everybody finds it easy to reflect on those things because we’re as human beings, we tend to reflect on what goes Badly, what goes wrong? And so asking when you’re at your best, what does that look like? What does that feel like? So just giving people space to think about that and starting to write that down, um.

Especially in action based words, well, I’m energetic, I’m strong, I’m alert, I’m alive, I’m lively, I’m relentless and just getting people unpack it from a tactical, strategical, uh, a physical perspective as well, just relating that those things to action based words is important. So I think my first answer is just giving.

people the space to think about it, because I agree and disagree with you. You know, people can’t always picture that, but often they can’t picture it because or at least give you a reason. I don’t know if I’m going to disagree with you. I’ll give you a reason why because I just don’t think people. Enter that world often enough.

I’m sure you’d agree with me. You know, part of our job is to help people become aware of those things. So we can tap into memory. We can tap into imagination. Tell me about a dream game that you want to play. What would that look like? What would that feel like? What will others see? Who do you need to be out there?

The skill of perception, you know, how do you need to execute your actions in what style? So let’s unpack that. Let’s start writing that. down. Let’s create start creating a framework, a mental framework around that. And then let’s break it down into simple words, metaphors that we can think about. You know, when I’m at my best, I’m like a lion out there.

I’m the king of king of the golf course or the tennis court. What we know that sounds kind of cheesy. I’m a lion out there. I know. But what we know from some good work from cognitive Cognitive linguists, if I can actually say that out loud. Cognitive linguists, um, is that this work was done in the 1970s.

Um, that approximately 70 percent of our language is metaphorical. So we tend to work. Our brain tends to work metaphorically. Um, action based words are wonderful for representations of who we need to be when we engage in actions when we engage in conversation. Behaviors. So let’s unpack that. Let’s start to create frameworks here and let’s break it down into simple words and phrases.

Um, then when we’ve got that written down and we can come back to my idea of being aggressive, dominant. Um, woods and let’s recognize that some people listening in might go aggressive. Is that really the right word? I don’t want to be aggressive. That’s fine. Everybody’s a little bit different. I pick aggressive because you know what?

I was just the antithesis I needed. I really needed a kick up the backside. I needed an injection of confidence and confident. Wouldn’t be a word that would be enough. I want to go out there and really be aggressive onto the golf course. onto the golf course, onto the golf shop. So that’s appropriate for me.

It’s not appropriate for everybody and that’s fine. But as you said, I’ve got to unpack what that means to me, what that looks like. And then I think the next step is to go and practice that within the context that you play in. You know, whether that’s, I do a lot of work in, in soccer, football, hence my book, Soccer Tough, Soccer Tough 2 and Soccer Brain.

I want to, I want players to practice that ideal mental state or optimal mental state or game face, whatever you want to call it in their activities, every single activity, every single session, every single day. So in soccer, it might be a keep ball, a small sided game, 11 v 11 passing with progression, whatever it is, I want you to practice that.

in your game face. When I went out to the golf course, I needed to practice in my game face. I needed to embody it on the practice ground. Simple as that. You know, when I was hitting shots, just be in my game face, then impose myself on my shots in practice, in my game face. So I’ve got to practice that. And then I think the next step is to start thinking about competition in terms of the mental side.

Well, what is going to be my high performance mindset here? Well, okay. Well, when I go out and compete, I am going to do that in that game face. I am going to be aggressive, dominant, uh, woods. Um, okay. What does that look like? What does that feel like? If it goes wrong, how am I going to do? Okay. What, how am I going to walk?

How am I going to hold myself? How I’m going to present myself to the whole and so on and so forth. So get it clear in your mind, practice put it. Up, probably up top going into competition, design a narrative, mental images around that going into competition and then commit yourself to going and executing in that way in competition.

We’ve got all kinds of terms for that in sports psychology, as you know, Jay, like being process oriented or being on task or something like that. I mean, for me, that’s what this is all about being process oriented means. Being in my high performance mindset, knowing what actions I want to execute and how I’m styling, which I’m going to execute my my actions, having some emotional techniques to deal with the challenges that I felt face emotionally on the course.

Going out there and embodying who I need to be. That to me has to be put first. Those are the steps that I will take players through. That’s a basic breakdown of what I would do. And then I will support them on their journey as they’re doing that at a very narrow viewpoint of sports psychology, obviously, but that’s the specific challenge that we’re speaking to here.

So that’s kind of how I would go about things. I love it.

And, you know, you, you mentioned the word execution and what I find fascinating is and because I listen to a lot of post competition press conferences, I feel that whenever, whenever anyone’s having a interview, maybe ahead of competition, you get to hear about their intentions, what they want to do.

And it’s a little bit more, um, I feel Maybe the words like pose your stage. It’s a little bit too perfect. But what I like about post competition press conferences is you’re kind of still on the field. You’re still a little rile. You’re a little bit more loose with your lips. And, um, so I listened to a lot of them.

And one of the things that I’ve recognized is that, um, a lot of these players and teams and coaches will have intentions. they don’t execute. So what’s the barrier? Because the intentions are there. We know what they could be. We know a lot of the intention side and we know we want to execute. But there’s some sort of barrier that’s between intention and execution that exists.

What is that barrier and how do we remove its resistance?

Yeah, good point. I mean, look, there’s two things to say before I speak in depth about this. I mean, the first thing to say is your question feels like the difference between knowing and doing. It’s one thing to know these things. It’s a different thing to do them.

And it also. of the disparity between simple and easy. It’s simple to talk about these things, but not easy to do them. You know, and I, I, I’m a very sad man. I think about this 24, seven far too much. Um, and, um, I can assure I’ve got 27 years in high performance sport, 18 years now, a sports psychologist. And, uh, and I think about this 24, seven, I can guarantee if I walked out on the golf course, um, and try to apply these because I don’t.

I don’t play anymore. Um, perhaps I need to see a sports psychologist myself to start playing again. But, um, I, I absolutely, if I started playing competition, I think it’s more to the point here, I would find this really tough to, to engage in just because I say I’m going to be aggressive, um. Aggressive dominant words and I can say it with force so I can say it with authority doesn’t mean I’m going to find it easy and look, I think to speak to your specifics of your question.

There’s several things I would hypothesize about human beings and sports in general is that human beings are complex and sport is complicated. Let’s start with sport first. I know people love to say. Oh, well, baseball. It’s simple. You know, it’s a it’s a simple sport or soccer. It’s a simple sport. You know, you just score a goal, don’t concede.

Um, you can, you can strip any sport back and say it’s simple. I think the reality is, is sports are complicated. You know, they’ve got guidelines, borders, barriers, rules, and so on and so forth. You’re against an opposition who want to beat you. Um, some sports you’re against natural opposition that can be brutal.

You know, if you think of team invasion, sports like soccer or basket. Um, um, you, you, you, you’re up against players who are trying to beat you. Very good players. Um, the game works in seconds. Um, you’ve got all of these cognitive challenges, the ability to be aware of the 360 around you, uh, take that information, act on that information.

Uh, stunningly quickly. Um. Automate your skills. So you don’t have to think too much about them. Um, search, decide, execute, uh, that constant triad that’s going on all the time, you know, sports are tough. They’re challenging whether it’s because of the opposition you’re, you’re, you’re facing, um, or because of the nature of the sport.

And then you’ve got yourself, you know, sports are also tough because as a human being, as human beings, we’re complex. We work from a. biopsychosocial perspective, our brain works in milliseconds. I mean, I think that’s one of the main things when I sat down to write, write, write soccer tough 11 years ago in the introduction, this is what I wrote is let’s soccer works in seconds, but the brain works in milliseconds, you know, uh, and, uh, and so the brain trumps.

Sports for speed every single time, even a golf swing, which lasts just over a second, you know, your brain is working in milliseconds and the brain is designed in essence, in very simple, simple terms to judge what’s going on around it, to want to have, um, comfort. And so it’s sending our nervous system, nervous system is sending thoughts, emotions, feelings up to our conscious awareness all the time, which can distract, which can get in a way that which can limit our awareness, that can send our awareness internal when it needs to be external, that can slow down our anticipation, that can damage our decision making, that can affect our decision.

Damage our physical functioning that can make us reinvest in focusing on the things that perhaps we’ve historically automated. There are so many things going on from a bio psycho social perspective that you sometimes wonder how people Actually function on the field in the first place one, the court or the course.

If you put it like that, perhaps that’s why I failed as a golfer because I was overthinking it far too much about this stuff. So, you know, I think all of those things can. Can impede on our capacity to go out there and play, play on the front foot, energy forward, you know, with that positive intent, play at the right intensity, rather than overly activated, where anxious, frustrated.

angry, um, stressed or under activated where we’re despondent and down, um, lethargic and flat. And then with attention, attention on the task at hand. There’s so many distractions out there, whether external or internal. So look, I, I tend to break it down to those three skills, mental skills, their attention, intensity.

Intent. So, uh, there’s so many things that can get in our way from a physical, technical, tactical, cognitive, mental perspective. I always say to people, look at it like this. If you people listening in can picture in their mind a box or three boxes, I should say, that say technical, tactical, physical, from a very simple.

Very simple perspective. Nobody denies that these lie at the heart of every single sport. Technical, tactical, physical. Technical, tactical, physical. Three boxes. However, I would say that there’s another box here. A bio psycho social box. Bio psycho social. Bio being body. Psycho being mind. Social being world.

Body, mind, world. Body, mind, world. And those three are interacting all the time. And constantly influencing and in being influenced by the technical, tactical, physical. I think that’s a really good graphic. People have different graphics for this, but I think that’s a really good graphic to get clear in your mind that psychology is.

constantly present. It is omnipresent. It is constantly interacting with the technical, tactical, physical size of things, and that human beings are complex and sports are complicated. And so subsequently, the psychology or the biopsychosocial are meaningful every single. So that I’m sure I’ve left so much out as to why, uh, why sports are hard.

You think of the interpersonal side of things, you’ve got to communicate as well as do all of this as well. There’s so many, many things going on. So I think these are the things that get in the way, and this is why athletes need to be trained mentally. They need to be trained psychosocially on leadership.

Teamwork, relationship, this is why behavior can be challenging. This is why the emotional side of the game is, is challenging. This is why learning isn’t always obvious. Um, there’s so many factors there. So hopefully that gives you some idea of that landscape.

I agree. And I think it, what you just said really brings us to the fact that it’s almost like a never, it’s a destination that you never arrive at.

Because, you know, I’ve got some athletes that I work with one on one that I talk to daily that worked with for years, and honestly, I’ve never run out of topics to discuss. I mean, in the offseason, maybe it’s leadership, maybe it’s communication, you know, maybe it’s better being empathetic, you know, which obviously falls within leadership, but maybe even just building empathy, like, or even just being an active listener.

You know, I think about how many times Uh, I catch myself, I’m getting much better at it where I’m having a conversation with someone and then I’m already thinking about my response and what, what I want to say, but it’s like, are you really listening to this person? And so it’s amazing to me, um, how many people just don’t even feel heard.

It’s like, well, they feel that way because a lot of them just don’t listen well. And so there’s, it’s like an endless. It’s not a destination. It really is a continuous journey. And so, um, I love that you kind of brought that up in the end of what you just said there because it’s because it is important because I had someone the other day, um, a friend of mine call me and say, Hey, listen, I need a favor.

One of my friends, his son is about to go into the NFL or no NHL. Uh, hockey. And, um, he needs a pep talk. And I said, okay, uh, a pep talk. So one, I’m already, I’m already like a glass and a half of Chardonnay in, and I’m in, I’m vacation in Spain. So like, you know, I’m not really feeling like giving a pep talk.

Like, could you please just call him? Like I told him you’d call him. I’m like, okay, fine. I’ll call him. But it’s like, you really think that one pep talk. With your son or one conversation is going to lead you to the promised land and all of a sudden the NHL, Wayne Gretzky’s titles are going to be at risk and all his accolades, you know, with one pep talk, it’s just amazing to me how sometimes people maybe discredit, um, the power of the mind, however, everyone gives, everyone says that sports are 90 percent mental.

Why do you think that there’s such a resistance because you and I are fighting the same battle, which is the stigma and the resistance. to this as being an important part of an athlete’s success. Why does that even exist? When everyone, the same people that resisted will tell you that in an interview that sports are 90 percent mental or everything they say as to why they failed has nothing to do with.

Oh yeah, you know what? The fundamentals of how so and so kick the ball was really off where our goalie wasn’t using his hands. Well, it’s never that It’s never the actual fundamentals or nutrition or physical. It’s usually the mental. Why the resistance?

Yeah, it’s big. It’s another big question that you ask.

I mean, I’ll throw a few things at you. Um, look, I think, I mean, the first. Portico would be that, that, that classic sort of, you know, the tangible or intangible nature of, of psychology, uh, or so it seems to be. And this is where I’m a big fan coming back to this notion of embodiment, that actually what you’re seeing play out in front of you is psychology.

You know, you could argue, and I don’t want to get too philosophical or esoterically, you know, that, that technique is psychology and tactics. Our psychology and the physical side of things are psychology. I mean, I was last week, I was in a, in a, in a gym at a, you know, very prominent European soccer club talking with the, um, sports science staff and strength and conditioning that they were just taking the players to a session.

And I’m saying, look, this is a, this is a psychological playground here. You know, everything is at play here, you know, you know, even if you. simplify and just say confidence, control, commitment, cohesion, concentration, all of those C’s, they’re at play here every single second. So his gym is a psychological playground.

So it’s, you know, on the one hand, it’s very difficult to, um, disseminate Uh, between psychology and the other areas, and on the other hand, psychology is always thought of to be quite intangible. So it almost seems to be a bit of a paradox that I think the other side of it is that historically that, you know, the socio cultural.

nature of sport. The sports coach landscape has been that maybe coaches have always felt that that is this is their domain and they do it. And some are perhaps better at delivering on the psychological side than others. Um, and again, There’s, there’s this kind of juxtaposition between it’s constantly happening, but is it happening?

Is it being done? Well, instrumentally, deliberately on purpose? I’m not so sure. And I think that that’s where, you know, good sports psychologists can get heavily involved here. I mean, I think coaches do psychology in their role. All the time, every second, but they’re not sports psychologists per se, I think is the best way to describe it.

So, but there’s a, there’s a psych, there’s a socio cultural landscape where I think historically or socio. historical landscape where coaches, well, I do that and very much soccer here in England or football, as we would call it. Um, you know, in the early stages of my career, and I think this is getting better now, you know, I’ve run up against some pretty prominent, uh, head coaches or managers, as we’d call them here.

Um, say, well, I’m the psych. I’m the psychologist. I do that. I do that. And, and, and, and, and there’s again, there’s a misunderstanding of what sports psychologists do. And also a fear, a fear of losing control. I think that very much exists again. I’ve been blessed to work some very, very prominent coaches who.

I obviously won’t name names, but I would say that person is a little bit fearful of letting go of that team meeting there that I think I could do a really good job delivering on this. And the players would appreciate it because it’s a different voice and different words, but the head coach or manager wants to deliver it because they’re just a bit scared of whether it’s letting go of control or being seen as somebody who’s, uh, who doesn’t have the capacity to do it.

And again, that’s a, uh, uh, an underestimation of players and their ability to go, no, we understand that different people in this environment do different things. Obviously I’m talking about the professional level here. I think if we bring it down to grassroots, we’re talking about resources. You know, I mean, the resources being money and time, you know, um, and, and, and then I, I, I would lean towards a psychologist.

Have we been good enough at educating coaches how to deliver on psychology? In, you know, within coaching programs, you know, embedded, uh, the, the, the biopsychosocial or the psychosocial skills embedded into a coaching program. We need to be better at communicating our message to help coaches. deliver, you know, in their activities, in their sessions on mental skills and psychosocial skills.

So maybe that’s a little bit of a, of us. I’m sure there’s multiple other things. There’s always going to be a bit of skepticism. You know, some of the best players in the world have shunned. Psychology, and often it’s because not always, but often it’s because they’ve got so much skill in their hands or their feet that often they’ve gotten away with, um, perhaps some poor, I can think of plenty of very famous golfers who’ve gotten away with poor psychology.

What would be deemed poor psychology, psychological processes, just because, you know what, they’re just damn good at golf, give them a club, give them a ball and they’re able to hit just about any shot. So. By and large, as a broad brush statement, any thought process can, can, but not always be overcome. But it’s the key, it’s the not always.

I spent some time working on the PGA tour and I worked with one player who said something very interesting to me. He said, Dan, this has been, I spent a few days with him and nice of him to say so, but he said, Dan, this has been an awesome few days. I’ve learned loads. Um, he was coming towards the end of his career.

Um, and he said, but I’ve got to tell you, I’ve won. You know, I’ve done none of this stuff, but I’ve won 20 million, you know, in the process of doing none of this stuff, but then he went on to say he had a double, but he then went on to say, but if I had known this stuff and if I had applied this stuff 20 years ago, you know, I can’t prove it, but I feel I would have doubled or tripled what I would have won.

And that’s not to. you know, say my stuff is great. It’s just to say sports psychology is great. Sports psychology is badass from that perspective. And he said, yeah, hands up. If I had applied this stuff, I really think I would have done better. I think I would have had more fun. I think I would have won more money, you know, so I think sometimes the athletes themselves can get in their own way by saying, I don’t need this.

I’ve never needed. this. And then I think the last thing to say is that we still seem to be a bit in the world of, oh, this is a weakness. You know, I don’t need this. This is that landscape is getting better, especially with a lot of the wellbeing and mental health openness now on social media. But there’s Still those voices.

Do I need this? Is this a weakness? Am I gonna look weak? If I go and explore this side and look, I don’t think I need to say anymore. We know that we’re stretches. We’re not shrinks. You know, we know we’re there to enhance performance, enhance well being, enhance mental health, not, um. Not not do anything else.

So it’s a fascinating landscape and it’s maybe one will never ever fully solve. Um, but something that we’re chipping away at, and I think we’re winning that battle.

Yeah, for sure. And like you said, I mean, I always ask someone, I’m like, okay, well, you just told me some of the things that have been holding you back, so if you don’t face them or don’t maybe work with me or someone that does what I do.

You know, what do you envision is going to change? You know, the equipment’s dead air at that point. I mean, what’s going to change. And it’s, you know, everyone just needs to face their fears. It’s like, you know, whether it doesn’t even matter whether it’s sports or not, whether it’s relationships finance, you know, like with me, I know I’m really good at making money, but I’m not good at building wealth.

And so that’s my focus right now. Now, at first it hurt to say, Oh, wow, I’m not good at building wealth. All right, that’s my ego. And I’m aware of it. I’m observing it in real time being resistant. And I’m like, Oh, look at look at little me here being upset that I haven’t gotten to the wealth status that I feel like I should be at.

It’s like, well, okay, so we got two options. You can either continue with that narrative, continue with the Thoughts, feelings and actions yielding the same results. Or do you want to lean into the fear? Um, you know, and say, Hey, listen, I really in the past have sucked at this, but I can tell you one thing that’s going to happen now, which is I’m not going to suck anymore at it in the way that I approach things like that.

And this just actually happened yesterday, by the way. So that’s why it’s maybe front of mind is I said, okay, you’re going to make some commitments today because tomorrow doesn’t exist. So tomorrow doesn’t, you want to change. Today is the only day you’ve got. And then I start with that framework. So it forces me to make some decisions now, instead of saying, Oh, yeah, that’s a great idea.

And then, of course, going back to default, you know, mode, um, for the rest, you know, for the next 5, 10 years until I have another moment. But, um, so it’s interesting. Uh, we’d love to, we’d love to hear how there’s so, so many great things that you brought up. Um, one of the things I wanted to hear about, um, You had mentioned with coaches them needing to let go of the power and control in the phrase letting go in our world.

You know, we’ve got fear, we’ve got letting go, we’ve got overthinking. I mean, there’s some words that you could write a book on, you know, because these are topics that Are always going to come up. What’s kind of your framework and the way that you help athletes let go from the stakes and failure? Um,

so there’s so many directions.

I could go there simply because I certainly work from the philosophy. Everybody’s an individual. And so I would look at the individual, their specific context and what they’re saying to me. But uh, If I was to treat this question in a broad brush way, I, you know, I think the first thing I would say is that I would, I do strive to help players be process oriented, which I’ve, you know, mentioned already and.

Try to come away, especially during, you know, just prior to and during performance. If I want them to let go of anything, I want them to let go of outcome and performance. Um, I, I, I think that there’s nothing wrong if we, if we look at The way motivation works, and I think motivation is multidimensional from, you know, extrinsic drivers and extrinsic rewards to intrinsic drivers and intrinsic rewards.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with athletes and coaches, you know, considering the outcomes that they want to have and the performances that are going to lead to those outcomes and really breaking those down, you know, in the week, in the lead up to, to a game, I think come game day, uh, where, you know, we want to limit mistakes and errors, um, then, uh, you know, I think first and foremost, it’s turning down the volume of the noise, the distractions.

And I think the first initial noise can be out. It’s got to win, got to win, got to win, got to win, got to, and then performance got to perform, got to perform, got to perform, got to perform. And it’s understanding that we now need to be process oriented and everything works in servitude of performance and subsequent outcome.

That’s a real skill. That’s a bit of mental gymnastics that I think competitors have to, uh, I really think all competitors have to be able to accommodate the capacity to understand. I want certain outcomes that requires certain performances. Um, And so subsequently, um, I need to be process oriented. Now, the one that there’s a little bit of complexity within performance, because I do think is again, if I was to answer your question as specifically as I can, and I reflect on my practice and the conversations I have.

I do try to help athletes understand that as human beings, let’s come back to the complexity of human beings with a body that has nearly 400 bones, with hormones being released left, right and center, um, uh, thoughts, emotions, feelings happening to us as, you know, as we live our life and attention going this way and that way, that it’s understanding that we can’t high perform.

We can’t have our best performances all the time. I actually think this. This is a very interesting narrative that I’ve discovered over the years and very much that I lean into is this idea that, you know, I often use scaling as a psychologist. So scale of one to 10 and I talked to athletes about, look, You can’t just as I’d say to golfers, you can’t always be on your A game.

You’ve got to accommodate your C game. I’ll say to soccer players, uh, players in all team invasion sports, you’re not always going to be at eight out and eight out of 10 or nine out of 10 all the time. You’re not always going to be outstanding all the time. You’ve got to leave room in your mind for accommodating average six out of 10, because you’ve got, there’s very few people on planet earth.

Who are always going to be seven and, and, and above respective, respective to their ability, their capability. And I think if you, if you take something like Lionel Messi in soccer, I would still suggest that if you sat down with him, he would say there are certain games he’s had where there are for him, six out of 10.

You know, in his world to mere mortals, it might be 10, but in his world. So I think respecting standards, you still got to accept that 10 might happen. You’ve got to accommodate that. The way I work with athletes is having them going in with as flexible a narrative. around process as possible. My job out there is process.

I recognize as a human being that there are going to be tough days and some days a 6 out of 10 is a really good performance. It’s the best I could have done. I had to be in my high performance mindset within my process to enable myself to have six out of ten to maybe take a look at seven out of ten to maybe turn five into seven or five into eight or six into eight or seven into eight or seven into nine to have my job is to have a process and a mindset that enables me to have my best performance and my best possible.

That to me is a very sophisticated narrative around performance and a very flexible narrative around performance. So then we’ve got to have a great, sophisticated, adaptable, flexible process in place. That to me is imperative. So then that now examines a look on. You know, a microscopic look, or if I make a mistake, what am I going to do?

How am I going to deal with that? That would come, come probably under the construct of mental concept of mental contrasting and mental contrasting is if it goes wrong, what am I going to do? How am I going to put this right? What behaviors am I going to engage in? How am I going to, for me, be stay aggressive, dominant words, even though I’ve just hit it out of bounds.

So, am I going to use my self talk? Am I going to use my body language? You know, what am I going to do here? That, to me, is it, it, but, but, but it is built on a bed of understanding and accepting that mistakes will happen. There will be very tough moments. Teammates will play poorly. Teammates will make mistakes.

Teammates will have a go at me. The opposition will play really well at times. Somebody might get the better of me. That’s okay. What am I going to do? We have to set up that narrative before the game in order to have a brain that is able to accommodate dealing with those moments. That’s where it starts.

And then we need to have enough of a routine in place on game day and enough specific strategies in place to help us remember to be able to do it on the go. And that comes back to the previous question of difference between knowing and doing. I’ve then got to do it. And that is something that to me is a skill.

And that’s what I say to players all the time, because if I get pushed back, I often get pushed back. Oh, but Dan, you’re asking me to use my self talk there. But, you know, soccer, football is a very quick game. Basketballs. How can I? And yeah, I don’t want you to talk to yourself for 95 minutes and I don’t want you to talk to yourself for four quarters.

I’m not saying that, but what I am saying is you need to engage in mental techniques to become mentally skillful in the moment, on course, or on the pitch, on the field, when you need to. You have to be able to catch yourself and get back into your high performance mindset. That is a skill. And for as long as you go, Oh, well, that’s overthinking.

I can’t do that. Then you’ll never do it. Belief begat belief. So, you know, if you don’t believe that you can do it, or you don’t feel that that’s important, you’re never going to do it. Well, I’m sorry. But the complexity of the human being and the complication of the game means that you’ve got to build the capacity to do that, and you’re probably not going to get it right every single time.

So there’s a lot of layers there to your question, but it is a fascinating area.

Yeah, for sure. And I think what’s interesting as well is with me, one of the things that I recommend and even use myself, I like to play tennis. Um, is to I bring in a little bit of sarcasm. So let’s say I make a mistake like I played two days ago.

Um, someone who I had beaten recently for the first time ever in like 30 years. So, um, You know, I already got a win. I’m like, oh, this is great. Yeah, but that was last time. Two days ago, I did get beat. But, um, what was interesting is I was making some mistakes. Um, mainly because I hadn’t practiced and I wasn’t prepared as much as I should have been.

And I realized that in real time and the way that I managed mistakes and recommend that people do it is I always managed meaning that nothing has meaning until you give meaning to it. And so I make them meaningless other than the fact that there might be, um, a little bit of an adjustment. Maybe that would be the meaning I would have, which is Well, maybe you could consider this.

You know, maybe you shouldn’t be hitting so hard or don’t try so hard or, you know, maybe focus on your second serves and not your first serves and getting more of those in, you know, whatever the adjustment is. But, um, I oftentimes will be like, after a mistake happens, I will say, Oh, interesting. In a very, very sarcastic way, kind of to diminish the value meaning importance of it.

And it seems to work well for me. And then maybe if if in that moment I have time, like let’s say it was golf where you do have a little bit of time or maybe tennis after a set over when there’s some time, I might invite the idea of some compassionate there for it. Curiosity. Like, Oh, why did I do that?

Why did I react the way I did to losing those two points? Why was that such a big deal to me? You know, and I might kind of go through some quick questions very compassionately. So I’m not kind of there’s no judgment. It’s more compassion. Get a little bit of clarity by using some curiosity and then say to myself, All right, what’s a simple adjustment I can make and just trying to tone it down, bringing a little simplicity.

Okay. Um, and that seems to work

well. Can I, I love everything that you said there and I love your ability in that moment to use real time self talk. And, you know, it making me think of, you know, if we dive into self talk a bit there, you’re speaking to, you know, uh, reflexive self talk. You know, we experience our thoughts or inner voice.

Uh, and. And, you know, that invoice says, Oh, well, you know, I haven’t practiced, you know, I’ve realized I’ve not been practicing and there’s so many many directions. You know, this is the fun of the fair here. There’s so many many directions. You can take this and you’ve spoken to a few. And, you know, as you were speaking, I was immediately thinking that potentially if I was in that situation, I’d be thinking I would build on that idea of curiosity and be thinking, Hey, you know what?

I haven’t practiced. That’s okay. All right. You know, bit of compassion. Okay. So, uh, curiosity could be, you know what? Okay. Look, I’ve been busy. That’s okay. That, that, you know, that, that’s my life is busy. That’s all right. Let’s see how close I can get to, you know, running this, this, this, this, this guy close in this game.

Let’s see if I, I can get close to winning. Let’s see how, let’s, let’s be curious about this. How good can I play whilst being underprepared in this game? You know, that’s a bit of reflexive. Self talk I would use there or, you know, uh, compassion, as you say, you know, compassion, reflexive self talk in that moment, it could be, Hey, you know what?

It’s all right. I’m going to lose. If I do lose, that’s all right. That’s fine. That’s right. All I can do here is you, as you said, just give it my best shot. Enjoy this. Have fun. And, um, You know, um, get back onto the court and practice next week, whatever it is, there’s so many, many, many things. I think one of the things that’s not often spoken about and to, you know, to, to build on your point of meaning is that when you work with clients, and I’m sure you’d, you’d agree here is that.

Sometimes when you speak to techniques like self talk, it can, it can sound meaningless when you’re on a zoom call and you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re deconstructing what to say to yourself. And the tone in which you talk to yourself, you know, is, is very important. And, uh, whether that’s in an energized tone or a relaxed tone, or, you know, just actually embodying within your own mind, that curious time, can we run this This is going to be a bit of fun here.

Can I haven’t practiced? That’s all right. So I, I am being empathetic with myself, with my tone and doing that inside of yourself and it’s giving yourself permission to do that, recognizing that that’s not madness talking to yourself, but that’s just instructing yourself in the moment and enabling you to get yourself through, uh, what could be perceived as quite a, you know, a tough time.

So I think there’s all kinds of, uh, many nuances there that are really interesting. For

sure. And I think the only time it’s madness when you’re talking yourself is when you buy into the lies and you believe the bullshit. That’s when it’s madness. Because a lot of the things that we say to ourselves, it’s just simply not true, you know, it’s like, Oh, I’m never going to be rich.

Well, based on what, you know, what facts are, I’m never going to win. Well, based on what, like, where are you coming up with this? That’s where I think that a lot of us sometimes do think that when we talk to ourselves, you know, that it’s maybe odd or different, but obviously we know that you and I know that we’re always doing this.

Whether you like it or not, you are doing it. But madness is definitely when, um, the conversations you have are not based on truth, but you’re accepting them as such. And so I find that to be interesting.

And that’s, of course, unless of course you’re playing Novak Djokovic, if he’s on the other end of the court, then you might, then you might want to, uh, acceptance commitment might be along the lines of, I’m probably going to lose this.

But I’m going to commit to my serve anyway.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, acceptance is a big one. I’m curious to see what your thoughts are on this. Um, I think a lot of it is we have to accept some of our outcomes because it decreases The meaning, value and importance of that outcome. If we sometimes even just accept like, hey, whatever is going to happen is going to happen.

A lot of things, obviously, especially team sports, right? A lot of things are out of our control. Certainly on a one on one tennis match. Sure, there might be more things within my control, but there’s still the other opponent. Um, but in team sports, there’s a lot of things outside of our control. So we know control the controllables.

A lot of people, you know, that’s their entry level. One of the top three things that we all hear. If you just continue. Explore sports psychology for a little bit. You’ll you’ll learn about controlling the controllables. Um, I often like to use the word acceptance, but I find that there’s resistance to the athletes that I talked about accepting things, right?

Accepting that Novak is going to beat you, accepting that, um, maybe like you said earlier, you brought up a great point, which is accepting the fact that maybe today My best is a six out of 10. How do you get people to embrace acceptance a little bit more? Because I think a lot of the resistance to it for most athletes is they almost feel like maybe that’s tolerance like that.

That means it’s okay. Well, it’s like it doesn’t mean it’s okay. But I can see where the resistance is. I’ve always struggled with getting athletes to accept things. Um, what’s kind of the way that you frame things to help athletes, um, manage the word acceptance because it’s tremendously valuable.

Yeah, I, I, I think my starting position will always be, um, acceptance around outcome and performance because of what I’ve described with the complexity of the human being and, and that and, and.

Subsequently, how acceptance can be of benefit to the experiences you have of your thoughts, emotions, feelings, that if I, if my self talk includes in directing myself towards the acceptance of outcomes and to, to a great degree, uh, performance that I can lower the volume of anxiety and stress and doubt and worry.

And so I try to have a conversation around those kind of things to help that person see the world through that lens. And we’ll have a back and forth. And, you know, uh, it’s, um, I think. Your question is a challenging one in as much as there’s always things that players will bring up from an individual perspective that might push back, but I’d certainly strive to be influential and persuasive around that notion of, you know, acceptance is, um, a word, whether it’s an action word or it’s a value that can Help turn down the volume of anxiety.

And if somebody is coming to me with performance anxiety, I think that’s an important conversation to have. Um, if somebody is really pushing back on me, that’s fine. Let’s experiment in a different direction. Um, so if somebody says to me, well, Dan, I, I hear you, but what I don’t want to do is be out there and accept my.

Performance as a given. I don’t want to accept the outcome. What I want to do is find solutions. Then again, we can talk about acceptance being a forerunner to finding solutions because when I accept something, I might put myself in a mental state that enables me to brainstorm solutions in the moment within my process.

Um, or we might ignore acceptance completely and go on to, well, how can I be flexible and adaptable around finding solutions in that, in that moment? And so we might start to talk about knowledge base, you know, and again, I’ll be working in sports where I have very little knowledge of the sport, but if somebody says to me, well, I don’t want to embrace acceptance and I just want to jump to solutions in the moment.

Because I’m not playing so well, um, then that might go beyond the knowledge I can give to them. But I’m going to start having a conversation about the knowledge that they have about their game and the game to enable them to brainstorm what solutions that they will come across in different scenarios.

So that’s about scenario building, essentially. And again, I’m not acting as a. From a, from a knowledgeable stance as a coach, I’m taking an ignorant stance, just asking questions and just discussing scenarios and getting players to brainstorm situations there. So I think we’re kind of cross crossing two territories, but I think you’ve got to, you’ve got to have a broad range in conversation that’s going to go in many, many directions that by the end of the session, you really need to have navigated somebody towards.

These are the things that I’m going to do, or these are the things that I’m going to focus on. And that’s where experience as a practitioner really can shine through. And it’s hard. It’s tough. And sometimes maybe you might not achieve that what you’d like to achieve at the end of the of a session. Um, but I definitely think as a practitioner.

Default for me is I do think we have to embrace acceptance to a certain degree, whether it’s acceptance of I can’t fully control my performance. So I’m going to accept a great deal. I’m certainly going to accept outcomes or let me take that back. I’m going to accept outcomes and performance to a great degree.

degree, but I’m also going to use acceptance as a way to clear my mind and start brainstorming solutions, um, that might then navigate me to a point where I can influence out, have more of an influence on performance and subsequently more of an influence on outcomes. Um, and that’s, that, that, you know, takes a bit of experience as a practitioner to do so.

Wow. Love it. Yeah. Thanks for feeling what I think is a pretty challenging question. I mean, that that’s a tough word to break down. I think you did a great job on it. Um, and one of the things that it kind of brings me towards is. You know, where, where we struggle with acceptance and we also hyper focus on results seems to be that and I’m gonna throw out a couple different words.

Not for you to answer all three, but maybe to pick one or whatever angle you want to approach this question. But I feel like we have an addiction to prediction and we have this desire to, um, maybe sometimes fulfill the uncertainty in life because uncertainty is a big deal for us. The fear of the unknown, right?

Um, so we have the fear of the unknown. We have this addiction to prediction, and I feel it’s goes way back to the Neanderthal days where our body’s main goal is just to stay safe. And then secondary to that would be to replicate. But we also set expectations. And I think that, in my opinion, expectations are often, um, give us like this false sense of certainty.

Um, maybe pick one of those words, whether it’s certainty Okay. prediction or expectations. Um, I think, or the fear of the unknown, you know, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot to unpack there. How do you approach that? Because obviously that’s where a lot of sports anxiety comes from as well.

So, uh, yeah, I agree with everything that you said, and it’s very much in line with, um, how I Neurologically see the brain, there’s a, there’s a few main, um, thesis or hypotheses out there from neuroscientists around how the brain functions.

Um, it’s a lot of controversy. I believe in, um, the brain as a, as a prediction machine that it’s constantly trying to reduce uncertainty and constantly trying to, uh, increase certainty. So, so, We won’t go too deep into that. I possibly can’t go too deep into that. I’m not a neuroscientist, and I wouldn’t want to speak above my station.

But, um, I think those two words are important that prediction and and certainty or uncertainty. Maybe I’ll come back to sort of an ultimate summary of what we’ve been speaking about that is cliche as it is that we want to try to help athletes have as robust a process orientation as possible as robust a process as possible as possible and a process orientation when they go and play.

Uh, and we have to appreciate really in many respects that again, in very stripped back, simple terms, there could be two types of processes. There could be a process that’s quite fixed. That is, I’m going to do this, this, and this, you know, my language I’m going to have, if I draw on my books, where my passion is to demystify this stuff.

And I’ve written basic techniques such as game face, squashing ants, that. Those automatic negative thoughts, having a match script, which is sort of two or three attentional cues that you want to focus on going into game that are premeditated. Um, using controllers, controllers, uh, being self talk and body.

Um, these are the kind of things that I write about that when I sit down with a client, the first thing I’m doing is if we’re talking about mental skills, I’m working on, uh, uh, these with them. And that’s. Um, it’s robust in that, that they can accommodate individuals, but they’re quite pres. They’re, they’re, they’re, um.

Individual to that person, but they’re prescriptive is a prescriptive plan that they can then take out and use as a mental framework. I would argue a step above that is perhaps leaning towards what I’ve spoken about in your last question, which is, I think Okay. You could argue that world class athletes are ones who, when they’ve been working on a world class mental framework, those frameworks have processes that are flexible, adaptable, and can find solutions in the moment.

So that, look, we increase certainty. Decrease uncertainty by revolving expectations around our process. I expect process. That’s what I expect from myself. That’s what I want my brain to predict at any given moment out there. My brain is a prediction machine. I want it to predict process more than anything else.

So when I see this, I do this. I see that I do that. That to me is. Step one. Above that, I think for those who are very mentally skillful, they have the capacity to brain to find solutions in the moment, not necessarily problem solved, but find solutions in the moment from the experiences that they’ve had.

So that they are better at dealing with uncertainty. So if uncertainty happens, we go two goals down this opponent that I’m, I am against in a one V one is doing things that I didn’t expect. Okay, I need to stick to my game face here. I need to stay in my game face. Uh, I need to keep using myself, but I also need to think about solutions in the moment to deal with this.

So they’ve got to come back to the things that they’ve spoken about with their coach in training. Maybe they’ve planned out a few things that If x happens, then I’ve got to do y. If y happens, I’ve got to do x. They’ve thought more deeply about the specific things that might happen in game that they can then draw upon, um, to be able to find solutions in that moment.

So In summary, and I hope this is making sense because this is challenging, I think step one is always and often you don’t get past step one with an athlete is just I want an athlete to have a mental framework that increases certainty that they revolve expectations around its process oriented, um, and it better helps their brain.

work as a predictive machine around that process. Above that it’s mentally training somebody to find solutions in the moment, find solutions in uncertain moments, whatever that uncertain moment might be, my opponent is doing something that I haven’t seen before. Um, my teammates are playing so badly that the ball isn’t getting out to me.

And I’ve got to do something different here. Um, in my one V one. I don’t know, in, in, in, in, in boxing, fighting sports, um, I’ve, my opponent has come out and has thrown a curveball at me and is engaging in this fight in a way that I didn’t think they were going to do it. I’ve got to find a solution here. So, um, it’s being, it’s having the capacity to be mentally flexible with your, irrespective of your process or with your process, Hey.

In those uncertain moments, does any of that ramble make

sense? Dan, I blasted you with the, I did not throw you one lob in the last hour. I have not given you any lobs. I basically said, I know Dan can handle it. I’m going to throw him the heat. And I threw you the heat and you threw the heat right back. I love the way you approach that.

And yeah, no, I, I agree. And, and I think that, that anytime you have a process it’s within your control and therefore, because it’s in your, in your control, it’s a known. So at a time where you have a lot of unknowns, we’ll create more notes, create some balance, you know, and obviously I think balance is a big thing, whether it’s work life balance, whether it’s unknowns versus knowns, certainty versus uncertainty, um, I think it’s almost like I think sometimes either like a balance scale or even sometimes like a pendulum where things are always moving.

And so sometimes you just want to maybe just add a little bit more weight to one side or Or increase the odds of things going in one direction. And I think the more knowns you have, little more comfort, little more certainty. You know, we know how many athletes say, Oh, I just couldn’t get comfortable out there.

Okay. Well, you, you could, you could, we could talk for two hours on the word comfortable, right? I mean, what is it? You know, here it is. This person, this athlete says, I couldn’t just get, I couldn’t get comfortable out there. Okay. Do you even know what comfort is? Have you explored it? Like, what are the aspects of comfort?

What do you need in order to feel comfort on one end of the pendulum? And then when you swing the other way, what are the things that pull you away from feeling comfortable? And I think if you can gain clarity on those things, There’s a lot of opportunity in just the word comfortable. I mean, how many athletes have blamed.

Their inability to get comfortable on the court, on the pitch, on the field, or in their chair if they’re eSports right, they couldn’t get comfortable, therefore they couldn’t perform. Okay, well where, where is this destination? You know, does anyone know? Like how do I, if I type in a GPS, if I go on Waze and say I want to go to comfortable, where, where, how do I even get there?

Do you know how to get there? Um, you know, and I think a lot of people even struggle with just the word comfort. I completely great.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just, just before we wrap things up, you can also lean into the literature on flow and, um, clutch states, uh, effortful and effortless states, you know, athletes do you use the word comfort?

F. When you talk to athletes about them at their best, they tend to talk about effortless states, whereas you want to try to broaden their horizon around. Well, you can compete in an effortful state, you know, and some researchers have called this flow versus clutch. Other researchers have different terms, but I completely agree again.

Look, you know, to finish things off here, look at what you’re saying. In many respects, you’re talking about the importance of conversation. You know, you’ve spoken to the importance of having conversation around comfort versus discomfort. And, um, again, we live in a world whereby athletes, sports people tend to like to do rather than talk and maybe even think because maybe they’re a bit scared of overthinking or maybe just that they’re inclined to be.

You know, that way they’re that way inclined as human beings and, and, you know, cognition isn’t necessarily their friend from a thinking about things perspective. Now that can work for some, and maybe it can deserve others too much thinking. Sure. There’s such a thing. Of course there is, but where you can, you want to try and hit that sweet spot.

Of thinking about it a bit more, having more conversation, a lot about this in organizations, you know, in sport, having more conversations on this kind of stuff, um, in, in, in an optimal way is absolutely crucial. It’s just sometimes that environment is too scared of it, but look, it’s been a fascinating conversation with you today.

Likewise. Yeah. And that’s

why one of my favorite words is curiosity. You know, think about it, the better coach you are, the more questions you ask. And the more clarity you gain and, you know, just curiosity and clarity, those two words alone have a lot for either organizations or, um, us as coaches or even just people within, within themselves, you know, just ask yourself, why did I do that?

Why did that result happen? Gain some clarity and then keep going deeper with the questions until you get to an end point. And sometimes that journey alone can yield some, some great, uh. Awareness. So, um, Dan, can’t thank you enough. Uh, thank you so much. And thanks for sharing your insights and your knowledge.

I love the depth that we went. I love that we answered the tough questions. We didn’t I didn’t throw any lobs. I didn’t give you any easy ones and you feel to them better than that, better than anyone else could have. So thank you so much. And then if someone wants to reach out to you and wants to hire you Um, or read one of your books or just learn more about you.

Um, because I know you, you have a course. Um, is that course more soccer based?

Yes, it is. So if anybody wants to reach out, I’m a very simple danabrahams. com. So, uh, thank you for that Jay. Really appreciate it. Um, I’m a multiple social media platforms. I write every day on LinkedIn and Facebook. So come find me there.

LinkedIn is just find Dan Abrahams. And then, um, on Facebook, it’s, uh, at Dan Abrahams, uh, soccer on Twitter. I have three Twitter accounts, but I’ll give you the main one. It’s at Dan Abrahams, 77. Um, and on, uh, Insta, I am at Dan Abrahams sport. Um, my books can be found on my website that link you over to Amazon.

That’s the best way I’ll just find them on Amazon. That’s soccer, tough soccer, tough to soccer, brain and golf tough. And my, uh, uh, my. Online Soccer Academy is just that it’s a soccer mental skills academy for players, coaches and parents to work on the mental side of the game. It’s actually supported, even though I’m English British, it’s supported 25 college programs, US college programs from Division 1 to Division 3.

in soccer this past fall, and we support a number of soccer clubs in America. It’s politics is very different landscape, uh, soccer in America to the, to the UK. We won’t get into that now. Um, but, uh, yeah, so, so if anybody’s interested, uh, there, you can just pop onto my website and find that. So Jay, I can’t thank you enough.

Really appreciate you giving me the opportunity. And I suppose one more thing would be my podcast, which you said, which is the sports psych show. Which I host every, every week. So I can’t thank you enough for your time and, uh, appreciate all of your great questions. And thank you.